Legislature(1997 - 1998)
03/13/1997 03:06 PM House HES
| Audio | Topic |
|---|
* first hearing in first committee of referral
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL
SERVICES STANDING COMMITTEE
March 13, 1997
3:06 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Con Bunde, Chairman
Representative Joe Green, Vice Chairman
Representative Al Vezey
Representative Fred Dyson
Representative J. Allen Kemplen
Representative Tom Brice
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Brian Porter
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
* HOUSE BILL NO. 157
"An Act repealing statutes that condition receipt of certain
occupational licenses on compliance with student loan repayment
provisions and compliance with support orders or payment schedules
related to support orders."
- HEARD AND HELD
* HOUSE BILL NO. 158
"An Act relating to attendance at a public school on a part-time
basis."
- HEARD AND HELD
(* First public hearing)
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 157
SHORT TITLE: REPEAL DENIAL OF OCC LIC FOR DEBTS
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) JAMES
JRN-DATE JRN-DATE ACTION
02/25/97 465 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/25/97 465 (H) HES, LABOR & COMMERCE
03/13/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
BILL: HB 158
SHORT TITLE: RIGHT TO ATTEND SCHOOL ON PART-TIME BASIS
SPONSOR(S): REPRESENTATIVE(S) DYSON, Austerman
JRN-DATE JRN-DATE ACTION
02/25/97 465 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
02/25/97 465 (H) HES, FINANCE
03/10/97 618 (H) COSPONSOR(S): AUSTERMAN
03/13/97 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
WITNESS REGISTER
REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 102
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 465-3743
POSITION STATEMENT: Sponsor of HB 157
DIANE BARRANS, Executive Director
Postsecondary Education Commission
Department of Education
3030 Vintage Boulevard
Juneau, Alaska 99801-7109
Telephone: (907) 465-6740
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 157
SCOTT STERLING, Commissioner
Postsecondary Education Commission
851 East Westpoint Drive, Suite 1312
Wasilla, Alaska 99654
Telephone: (907) 376-8076
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 157
LARRY WIGET, Director of Government Relations
Anchorage School District
4600 DeBarr Road
Anchorage, Alaska 99519
Telephone: (907) 269-2255
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified against HB 158
MIKE FORD, Attorney
Legislative Legal
Legislative Affairs Agency
130 Seward Street, Suite 409
Juneau, Alaska 99801-2105
Telephone: (907) 465-2450
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 158
CAMI MOLINE
6709 Marguerite Street
Juneau, Alaska 99801
Telephone: (907) 463-3526
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 158
SUE CLOVER
4413 Julep Street
Juneau, Alaska 99803
Telephone: (907) 789-4729
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 158
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 97-19, SIDE A
Number 0000
CHAIRMAN CON BUNDE called the House Health, Education and Social
Services Standing Committee meeting to order at 3:06 p.m. Members
present at the call to order were Representatives Bunde, Vezey, and
Dyson. Representatives Brice and Green arrived at 3:07 p.m.
Representative Kemplen arrived at 3:14 p.m. Representative Porter
was absent.
HB 157 - REPEAL DENIAL OF OCC LIC FOR DEBTS
Number 0012
CHAIRMAN BUNDE stated that there was not a quorum, but the meeting
would begin with testimony regarding HB 157, "An Act repealing
statutes that condition receipt of certain occupational licenses on
compliance with student loan repayment provisions and compliance
with support orders or payment schedules related to support
orders."
Number 0029
REPRESENTATIVE JEANNETTE JAMES, Sponsor of HB 157, referred to a
proposed committee substitute which narrowed the bill to its
original intent. She said it would make the bill apply only to a
student loans issued on or after July 1, 1995, which is the
effective date of prior legislation. This legislation authorized
the student loan division to notify the Department of Commerce and
Economic Development to deny renewal of an occupational business
license for someone who is delinquent on their student loan.
Number 0090
CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced that Representatives Green and Brice had
arrived. The committee had a quorum.
Number 100
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES explained the current system; if there is a
delinquent student loan when the occupational business license
comes up for renewal, it can be denied until the delinquency is
cured in some way. This appeared to be a good way to handle these
cases. She was distressed with the student loan staff who have
allowed these delinquencies to become so severe. She felt that as
a keeper of the money, you have a responsibility to collect that
money. She believed, even when the 1995 legislation was passed to
force people to pay, that they were penalizing them for their bad
behavior. She did not like to make things retroactive. She
believed that people, who made these loans prior to July 1, 1995,
did not understand or know this was going to be a loan condition.
Her legislation doesn't forgive them for not paying their debt, nor
does it eliminate the opportunity for them to arrange to make
payment on their liability.
Number 0240
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES said the other thing that brought this to her
attention was a particular case where a person was obviously
delinquent, had a lot of extenuating circumstances, and did not do
anything right. His options came down to making a sizable payment
and/or a payment in full. This decision was appealed because he
had missed the window of opportunity to allow him to respond to the
request. She saw HB 157 as an opportunity to put the situation in
a prospective manner instead of a retroactive manner. For those
people, who received their student loan before July 1, 1995, the
legislation would not apply.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES said an argument could be made that there is
a lot of loan debt which will not be collected. She had little
sympathy with that position because with, or without, the ability
to deny an occupational license, these loans are either collectable
or not. If you are aggressively managing these loan accounts,
there should be other methods to collect the money, or making a
negotiation for payment. She understood that revoking the
occupational license is an attention getter which is why it has
become so popular. It doesn't make it right.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES referred to a similar situation with revoking
fishing licenses. The Internal Revenue Service (IRS) is coming in
and taking fishing licenses away from people who haven't paid their
income tax. Those fishermen will never be able to pay anything if
you take away their work. The IRS has sold these licenses for
$3,000, when it may have been worth $30,000. The IRS will probably
never be able to recover the tax money.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES said anytime you are dealing with borrowers,
you need to be firm. When they sign the document regarding the
conditions of the loan, it should be clear to the borrower and
after the conditions should be followed through until the loan is
paid in full. To add another rule, which wasn't there in the first
place, seems unfair.
Number 0466
REPRESENTATIVE JOE GREEN made a motion to adopt the committee
substitute, Lauterbach, dated March 7, 1997, for HB 157 as the
working document. There being no objection, CSHB 157(HES) was
before the committee.
Number 0494
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN clarified that there were 61 defaulters, with
48 of them having made or are in the process of making restitution.
He asked if HB 157 would only be addressing 13 defaulters.
Number 0502
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES said this was possible, but added that she did
not know how many student loans were out there. She thought there
would be more delinquencies than 61, perhaps more loans would
become delinquent. She said the student loan staff have only dealt
with 61 loans in default when those people who came in for their
occupational licenses.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES explained that as a bankruptcy trustee for ten
years she saw people over the edge. She had sympathy for them, not
because they were innocent or didn't make some problems for
themselves. She felt there ought to be a way for them to get
through the problem without such an aggressive stand having to be
made. It is possible that in these 61 cases, where they were able
to get a lump sum, it did not hurt them. Her experience is that
when people are forced to make those payments, they don't have food
to eat. In those severe circumstances, there needs to be a greater
assistance in letting them know the conditions. She felt strongly
that if this wasn't part of the original loan package, this should
not be a method allowed to be used to collect the money.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced that Representative Kemplen had joined the
committee meeting.
Number 0624
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if those 48 people, who had gone through
the process and made their payments, would come back to the
legislature and complain.
Number 0652
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES agreed that those people could complain,
because the legislature is being retroactive again. However, those
people who are in good stead with their loan probably would not
like to be in default and would not likely be the ones to complain.
Number 0694
CHAIRMAN BUNDE shared Representative James' frustration, but
understood that this frustration was not created by members of
post-secondary education. In the past Alaska, in essence, gave
away money. A loan was given with the intention that it would be
paid back, but if it wasn't then it was forgiven because of the
past perception of the state's monetary resources. He said the
loan programs are now on a self-support basis. The way the loan is
going, we only have five or six years for it to last, at its
present rate.
Number 0753
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES said this is her problem, that borrowers
expect one thing and then they are faced with another scenario.
She did not have a problem with people taking out a loan on those
conditions, but not to introduce a different situation after the
conditions of the loan have been signed.
Number 0774
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said the state is paying for past sins, not all of
which we were present to commit.
Number 0783
REPRESENTATIVE AL VEZEY asked if the legislature hadn't just passed
this bill last year or the year before.
REPRESENTATIVE JAMES said it was passed in 1994 and became
effective in July of 1995.
Number 0800
DIANE BARRANS, Executive Director, Postsecondary Education
Commission, Department of Education, was next to testify. She
explained that HB 157 was in essence a public policy call. She
stated that the committee was familiar with the student loan
program and the challenges faced in terms of collecting on
defaulted loans. The cumulative default rate has been brought down
in recent years, but it still hovers above the 18 percent rate
which equates to approximately $100 million in default. The
commission has been working with the legislature and the
Administration over the past few years to try to assemble a variety
of tools to reduce that default rate. This is one method to do
this. It has been used for one year.
Number 0860
MS. BARRANS referred to a fact sheet located in the committee file
titled, "Alaska Commission on Postsecondary Education". In order
to be impacted upon a renewal, occupational licenses are renewed on
two year cycles, an individual would have to be at least six months
in arrearage, actually in default. The person also would have had
to have been reluctant or refused to make some sort of payment
arrangement on their defaulted loans. The reason, the number of
borrowers that have been impacted is low, is that the commission
spent about four to six months informing defaulted borrowers and
all borrowers of this new tool that the state had. A number of
individuals made payment arrangements and were never caught in this
new tool. There were 61 people that did get to the point of having
their license denied upon renewal, 48 of those individuals did
either make some payment arrangement with them or made a lump sum
payment that in some way paid their past due amount. In some cases
the arrearage was so great that the commission negotiated with them
and took something less than the total amount in arrears as long as
they agreed to a payment arrangement. Eight or nine of those
people were never able to be contacted and three or four of them
moved out of state so their Alaska occupational license would be of
little use to them. She stated, that in terms of acting
professionals who have been caught in this without some recourse,
it has been a small number of people.
Number 0970
CHAIRMAN BUNDE verified that of the 13 people that Representative
Green mentioned, most of them would have gone out of the state. He
asked what numbers, she would anticipate in the next year, would be
affected by the past legislation.
Number 1005
MS. BARRANS said they anticipated seeing a doubling of people
affected by the past legislation. It is her understanding, from
the Division of Occupational Licensing, that they try to spread the
renewal cycle so that staff activity is stable throughout the two
year cycle. She predicted that the commission would see as many as
120 to 130 individuals who were leveraged with this tool over a two
year period.
Number 1018
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if she would predict that three-fourths
of those would then make some sort of restitution.
Number 1031
MS. BARRANS answered yes, if the current pattern held, which they
assumed it would.
Number 1041
SCOTT STERLING, Commissioner, Postsecondary Education Commission,
said this tool is needed. If an injustice occurs in a particular
case, then it can be remedied on a case by case basis. The
underwriters of the bonds are the ones in control of this program.
The underwriters look to the commission for the professionalism and
the managerial tools to control the default rates. We are
currently asking a great deal of work from the proprietary school
in order to control default rates, both by program and institution.
The commission must do a lot as well because the proprietary owners
aren't asked to go out and make collections, this is the
commission's responsibility.
Number 1111
CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked if he was aware of the specific case
referenced by Representative James.
Number 1125
MR. STERLING said he was not aware of the facts regarding the case.
The commission's procedures, while certainly not perfect, contain
ample opportunities before this ultimate sanction for a person to
come in and repay or make an offer. Many loans that are in
default, come out of default because people come in and make a
negotiated payment arrangement.
Number 1199
CHAIRMAN BUNDE reiterated the policy of the committee; to hear the
bill and wait until the next meeting before it is addressed again.
He suggested that this particular case be discussed.
MS. BARRANS said this particular individual has made a lump sum
payment and the commission has agreed the release of (indisc.).
HB 158 - RIGHT TO ATTEND SCHOOL ON PART-TIME BASIS
Number 1293
CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced the next item on the agenda was HB 158,
"An Act relating to attendance at a public school on a part-time
basis." He said because Finance subcommittees are being closed out
and there are conflicts, committee members will be coming and
going. He said this is the first time that this bill is heard and
testimony can continue even if a quorum cannot be maintained. The
bill would be addressed next week.
REPRESENTATIVE FRED DYSON, Sponsor of HB 158, said the Alaska
Constitution requires that we provide education for all students
who are qualified. He referred to Article VII, Section 1, "The
legislature shall by general law establish and maintain a system of
public schools open to all children of the State, and may provide
for other public educational institutions." To his knowledge there
is only one school district in the state, the Anchorage school
district, which does not accept part-time students. It is his
position that this is unfair, public schools are a public resource
and ought to be opened to qualified students.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said parents who are home schooling or have
enrolled their children in a small, private school do not always
have the resources for a computer lab, a shop class, a German class
or something else. These parents feel they are being discriminated
against by not being able to enroll their students on a part-time
basis. This bill attempts to eliminate the discrimination.
Number 1373
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said the foundation formula has made a
rational provision for part-time students. This formula is located
in the committee file. As he read it, if a part-time student is
there for a one hour class the school gets 25 percent of a full-
time equivalent, for two hours they get 50 percent, for four hours
they get 100 percent. He offered a revision of this formula if the
school district would need to see more recovery for the
administrative cost of a part-time student.
Number 1427
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON stated that most of the state school districts
cooperate with the home school and the private school students in
their area. MatSu district does a marvelous job of working with
their home school and private school kids and has done some special
things to help them. Several school districts added that, when a
student is expelled from school for disciplinary problems and then
gets home schooled or private schooled, it is a great transition
method for the student to go part-time into the public school
setting rather than automatically becoming a full-time student. It
gives the public school a chance to see if their deportment has
gotten the student to an acceptable level of behavior.
Number 1459
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON explained that there is nothing in HB 158
which talks about after-school activities, it deals with the
academic program. Although he would like to see public schools
make all the resources available, HB 158 only addresses academics.
He believed that the school district ought to deal with
extracurricular activities as they choose. This bill also has no
mingling of public and private funds. A student who is involved in
a private sectarian school and goes to a public school on a part-
time basis to take a physics class, provides no benefit to the
private sectarian institution. It is a benefit to the private
student.
Number 1498
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said HB 158 does not talk at all about
transportation, nothing about mingling of religious and public
activities. He added that there are cases where the courts have
ruled that public schools must take handicapped special education
kids, even if they are all involved in a private sectarian
religious school. Whatever barriers are there in making a benefit
to a private and religious school, those have been overshadowed by
the need for the handicapped student to have access to the public
school resources.
Number 1543
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said Mike Ford from Legislative Legal is here
to answer any questions as well as Lisa Hoff, his aide.
Number 1560
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN created a scenario where two home schooled
students wanted to attend a public school to take History 101. He
asked if there was the potential to create an overcrowded
classroom.
Number 1581
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said this could happen, just as it would if
Alyeska moved 480 families to Fairbanks or new families moved into
a community. These additional families are going to create
overcrowded classrooms. Most of the school districts, outside of
Anchorage, hoped that the private schools and the home schools
wouldn't quit what they're doing. If all the home school or
private school kids in their area came to school, they would have
no basis on which they could reject them, they are an Alaskan
student. Schools are always going to be subject to increasing
population pressures. His view is that we ought to not
discriminate against that student just because he is going to a
private school.
Number 1616
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN expressed a concern that the school would
create schedules and then be inundated with students they did not
expect to come into the public schools.
Number 1647
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON answered that there are some very good staff
who work on these problems; how many people have moved into their
district over the summer, what is happening on the military bases
and so on. Those staff are pretty good at estimating the numbers
and other districts around the state are handling how many part-
time students they will have. There is a process and a lead time
in the fall when the parents go through the registration process.
He assumed that the part-time students went through the same thing
as the full-time students do. The district has gotten very good at
employing part-time instructors to take the peaks and valleys off
the varying loads and the classes that are slightly unpredictable.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN clarified that these would matriculate just
like anyone else.
Number 1695
CHAIRMAN BUNDE mentioned the scenario presented by Representative
Dyson where people are moving to Fairbanks. Fairbanks now has six
months to gear up for these 480 families. He reiterated that the
home schooler who wanted, in the next school year, to be part of
the public school would be required to register ahead of time so
there would be some lead time. He clarified that, in mid-November,
someone couldn't come in for a couple of weeks to attend a physics
class. There would be some lead time for the district. Students
might come and go on a semester basis. He asked if Representative
Dyson would anticipate the same process as the one currently done
for full-time students.
Number 1730
CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to the MatSu Valley and said they are well
known as double dippers. They classified a lot of home schoolers
as their students until they were caught. He said there were a lot
of good folks out there who don't want any government service
unless their house burns down or they need a school, nor do they
want to pay any taxes.
Number 1753
REPRESENTATIVE J. ALLEN KEMPLEN presented a scenario where there
was a school with a multi-media computer lab and 20 private school
students came in and wanted to use that computer lab at the same
time. He asked how that would work.
Number 1788
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON answered that the public school would be doing
its duty by educating qualified Alaskan students.
Number 1793
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN asked if his interpretation of those
students' use of the public school would not be a subsidy to the
private school.
Number 1809
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON answered yes. He presented a situation where
one of those private school students had a brother who brought home
a library book from the public school and the private school
student happened to read it. The private school student benefitted
by becoming more educated. He did not see this as a mingling.
Number 1836
REPRESENTATIVE TOM BRICE said, along those same lines, the
foundation formula will provide funding for those students that
come in to take that one class at a higher level than a full-time
student, to help compensate the school district.
Number 1851
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said this was true and added that there could
be an inclusion to encourage the Department of Education (DOE) to
provide even more front-end loading if the Anchorage school
district can make a compelling argument that the administrative
cost of a one hour student is close to that of a full-time student.
If they can do this, then we might want to give them even more
money. The funding formula that is being used is ten years old.
Number 1876
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said it probably administratively taxes the system
to register a student for one hour as it does to register them for
the whole day. He asked for more information on this front-end
loading.
Number 1887
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON explained that the current formula provides
that for a one hour student you get 25 percent of a full-time
student's credit, 2 hours results in 50 percent and 4 hours equals
100 percent. His first thought, before he realized how well the
DOE had done this, was to give the school district 35 percent for
the first hour and go to 100 percent at four hours. He felt more
educated administrators have done it this way and he would want
them to comment on the rational behind it.
Number 1912
LARRY WIGET, Director of Government Relations, Anchorage School
District, said the Anchorage School District opposes HB 158. He
referred to packets of information located in the committee file,
regarding back-up information and the district's position on the
ability of non-public students to participate in selected aspects
of the public school program. There was also information related
to extracurricular activities which, according to Representative
Dyson, is not part of the discussion.
Number 1973
MR. WIGET said the school district questions the constitutionality
of HB 158, the administrative burden, the legal and policy
considerations as well as the local control issue. It is their
position that permitting private school students to attend public
school classes violates Alaska's constitutional prohibitions
against providing direct benefits to private schools and
appropriating funds for non-public purposes. In addition,
permitting private religious school students to attend public
school classes might violate the establishment clause of both the
state and federal constitutions. By taking over a portion of the
parochial school's responsibility for teaching secular subjects,
the district would, in effect, be subsidizing religious function in
the parochial schools and/or private schools.
MR. WIGET explained that the very courses which are being
identified are high cost enrollment courses; physics, computers,
etc. If you are a private institution and do not have to provide
those courses, you can spend that money in other areas. Those
schools could eliminate those courses from their curriculum which
are the high cost courses. In a sense it subsidizes the private or
religious school by having the public school provide those courses.
MR. WIGET cautioned the legislature that HB 158 increases the
possibility of litigation because of the constitutionality of the
statute. He suspected that the Anchorage School District would be
the ones who would bear the cost of that lawsuit.
Number 2055
MR. WIGET referred to the discussion on whether this part-time
schooling has an impact on the district or has an impact on the
students. On behalf of the district, both are issues. Attempting
to accommodate the potential part-time enrollment of the over 2,000
plus private correspondence and home school students who reside in
the Anchorage attendance area under HB 158, raises a number of
concerns and policy issues. The proposed statute may create
unrealistic expectations that part-time students will be assured a
seat in a given class. Administering the process is no small
issue. Juggling the needs of the potential 2,000 part-time
students with the needs of the 48,000 students currently enrolled
in the district would be a major problem. The district has to plan
for additional enrollment without knowing how many students. He
agreed with Representative Dyson that the staff working in
demographics are very good, but there are unknowns in this area.
Number 2099
MR. WIGET said HB 158 does not address the transportation of
students which might become an issue raised by parents, it could be
another source of litigation. He stated that if we legally needed
to provide a student access to a class, if that would also include
providing transportation access to the student whose parents could
not take them to this class.
MR. WIGET said there is also the issue of continuity of the
instructional program between the school district as compared to
the continuity being provided by the home or private school. He
brought up discipline issues. This statute will probably result in
an undue administrative burden and will result in some legal
challenges from both full and part-time students.
Number 2131
MR. WIGET brought up the final issue, local control. Requiring a
school district to provide this violates the concept of local
control. It takes away the decision making power of the local
school board. In conclusion, the Anchorage school district will be
heavily impacted by any statute that requires the district to
enroll part-time some, or all, of the 2,000 plus private
correspondence or home school students who reside within the
Anchorage school district attendance area. This proposed statute
creates concerns for increased litigation. There might be limited
opposition from other school districts, but said he was just
talking to someone from a large district who expressed concerns
about HB 158.
MR. WIGET asked the committee to consider the difference between a
small and a large school district. He said Anchorage is the
eightieth largest school district in the United States. They are
three times larger than the next district in the state which causes
problems which might not be encountered in some of the more rural
districts. Those rural districts might be looking for enrollment
to keep their schools going. He said there might be limited
opposition, but for the Anchorage school district this is an
important issue which cannot be ignored.
Number 2190
CHAIRMAN BUNDE clarified that Anchorage was the only district in
the state which did not allow part-time students.
TAPE 97-19, SIDE B
Number 0000
CHAIRMAN BUNDE asked if there have been any constitutional
challenges from the other districts.
Number 0021
MR. WIGET answered that there have been no constitutional
challenges at this point in time. It doesn't mean that there isn't
some potential for those challenges.
Number 0040
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said he has received lobbying from MatSu, not one
person from Anchorage has lobbied him about this issue. He
clarified that if someone moved into the district now, the school
district was required to provide a seat. He asked if a home
schooler shows up, would the district be required to provide a
seat.
Number 0083
MR. WIGET said he might approach it this way if he were a principal
in a school where that student would be placed. If a parent wanted
to enroll their student in a number of classes, it is quite
possible that the principal might say that at this point in time
the particular computer class was not available because it was
full. Allowing part-time students brings in people who get to pick
and choose from the curriculum.
Number 0125
CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to the concept that home schoolers would
need to enroll in the classes and not just pop in mid-semester. If
new students arrived mid-semester and attended classes, then he did
not know how we could prohibit home schoolers from attending a
class mid-semester.
Number 0161
MR. WIGET said this raised another point. The idea that we would
be allowing a student to pick and choose a class, and asked what
would stop a student, who is a senior in high school, who is unable
to get the computer course he needs, from becoming a home school
student and then enrolling in the computer class.
Number 0217
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if he was a part-time student who was
going to take one academic class, but did not require ancillary
activities such as gym or cafeteria, would that assist with making
up the difference for the expensive class.
Number 0290
MR. WIGET cited an example from when he worked at the University of
Montana. He taught a hands on technology course for 20 students
and needed an additional $50,000 worth of equipment. Conversely
there was a professor who gave a history lecture course and was
able to have 300 students. He described the disparity between the
expenditure and resources.
Number 0342
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN provided the possibility that there was not
such a disparity as was previously mentioned. He referred to the
comment that there might be problems with taking a student from a
religious school. He clarified that the constitution says that no
money should be expended for religious or private educational
institution. He asked if a student was the same as an institution.
Number 0378
MR. WIGET felt this was an issue that would wind up in the courts.
There is some disagreement, that potentially you can be providing
direct support to the institution by having a class that the
institution doesn't have to offer to meet the requirements. The
feeling is that you could circumvent having to offer that class by
telling students that they should individually go to the school and
tell them to offer this particular class.
Number 0438
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked if Mr. Ford could respond to the
constitutionality question.
Number 0458
MIKE FORD, Attorney, Legislative Legal, Legislative Affairs Agency,
said the constitutional question boils down to the issue of whether
or not it will be a direct benefit to the private institution. He
did not believe that the cases on the issue support the conclusion
that it is a benefit. What is being suggested that if you attend
a private school you lose your status as a protected individual
under the provision that requires the state to provide education to
students of Alaska. He did not believe this was true because we
are merely leveling the playing field and saying to a student that
they have the right to attend public school classes. The issue of
overcrowding, displacing another full-time student is taken care of
by a provision in HB 158. This provision says that you basically
have to treat the non-public student in the same manner as you do
the public student. If you have a computer science class that is
full and you can't transfer someone into the class, then you would
not have to enroll the private school student into that class.
This provision does a lot to alleviate this pressure concept.
MR. FORD said, if you have a spot which is not being filled, then
that person should be able to come in and take it. It comes down
to a question of direct benefit. He thought the benefit being
discussed is conferred to the student, not the institution.
Number 0542
MR. WIGET asked Mr. Ford if someone else in his same position could
come up with the exact opposite position.
MR. FORD answered that anything is possible.
Number 0564
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON said we have many diverse cultures in our
country, in terms of ethnicity and religions. As those groups
dispersed they found themselves without the population base needed
to form a private school. He cited an example where Mormon
classmates of his went to a designated place and received
instruction. It was a definite benefit to them, because they did
not have their own school and curriculum for a handful of students.
The public school, in essence, benefited that group. He referred
to Jewish communities who provide special instruction.
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON asked if the district was going to be in the
position of saying that they did not want this public resource to
be of any benefit to any schools or any kids that are attending any
kind of religious education somewhere.
Number 0662
MR. WIGET said he would probably make a distinction between taking
a public school course and having separate religious instruction.
He took religious instruction separately in his church. He
emphasized the word "separately". He was not taking academic
courses at the church. The Jewish community in his neighborhood as
well as the Ukrainian community had their own separate thing
outside the public education system as an added thing that they
wanted to do. He said this is probably getting into a different
level of interpretation. If HB 158 is passed, these different
interpretations will be brought up and judged legally.
Number 0708
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said this is the first time that HB 158 is being
heard and no action will be taken on it at today's meeting.
Number 0749
CAMI MOLINE explained that she has two boys, the younger one has
been taken out of public school and she has enrolled him in the
home school program that the school district administers. She's
had several days this year when she felt the public school teachers
ought to thank her for taking him out. She has another child who
attends public school. She just heard about HB 158 this morning
and does not feel that money should be taken out of the public
schools.
MS. MOLINE read from a prepared statement, "I am a stay-at-home-
mom. Before having the wonderful opportunity to do this as a
career, I worked at three different agencies as a social worker and
counselor to delinquent and emotionally disturbed adolescents and
teenaged children.
I have come to the conclusion that raising children to become
responsible adults is something that simply cannot be left to
chance. We cannot count on it happening accidently. A few years
ago children spent much more time with their parents, and had much
more access to adults who cared about them and could influence
their lives in positive ways.
But things have changed. It seems to me that now, perhaps through
no fault of their own, parents leave home at the crack of dawn and
don't see their children until dark. This means they turn their
children over to other people, some of them highly trained and
almost invariable well-meaning, and in some cases, totally
committed. But, Mr. Chairman, this arrangement is just not working
for all students. Every study that's ever been done has clearly
shown that none of the many alternatives, provided as they often
are by specialists, quite measures up to substantial parental
involvement in the daily lives of children.
Wherever possible, the primary responsibility for children should
lie with their parents. I certainly do recognize that with many
families it is essential for both parents work. Some of the best
parents I know, and you know, are women who hold full-time jobs.
I honor them for it. But we are sticking our heads in the sand
when we insist that there is nothing wrong with less and less time
for children to bond with their parents, and that the trend toward
our having all aspects of our children's lives turned over to
`specialists'. Oftentimes the specialists are reduced to little
more than day-care workers for school age children. Sometimes the
specialists are deeply committed, long-suffering teachers, trying
to meet the incredibly diverse educationally and emotional needs of
30 plus children in their classrooms. It cannot be done. It is
wrong for teachers; it is wrong for parents and, most of all, it is
wrong for children. And there is no room for professional
territorialism when it comes to the training of our children.
Parents and teachers must enter into a new kind of partnership in
this immensely important process.
Any legislation that enables and supports willing parents who want
to give more of themselves to their children and take more
responsibility for the education and training of their children,
makes sense."
MS. MOLINE said the discussion on this bill assumed that there
would be a huge influx of home school and private school children
into the school district. She felt that many parents, who feel as
she does, would relish the opportunity to spend more of the day
with their children imparting special skills. Those parents might
not feel totally confident that they have the skills needed to
teach math, for instance. Her older son is 11-years-old and would
be making the transition to middle school, but those classrooms are
packed and his needs will not be met there. She plans on taking
her son out of school and sees HB 158 as a method for reducing
class size. Students who attend public school would receive more
attention from the teachers. She did not want to take any money
out of the public school systems and did not see that people who
would take advantage of HB 158 would want to do that either. It
needs not to be taken for granted that class sizes would increase
in all areas.
Number 1063
CHAIRMAN BUNDE said that was a point well taken. He suspected that
class sizes might increase in some specialized areas, but not in
all areas. He asked, as someone who home schools, whether she
could enroll her son in a public school class. He asked what the
policy was in the Juneau school district.
Number 1082
MS. MOLINE said the Juneau public schools have offered a computer
lab for her son's use. This offer has not been taken advantage of
because there hasn't been the need to do it.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE clarified that the access is available.
Number 1102
MS. MOLINE pointed out that there seemed to be an antagonism
between parents and children. She felt parents needed to take more
responsibility. Parents hold teachers in the public schools
accountable for all the problems their children have.
Number 1140
CHAIRMAN BUNDE referred to a personally held philosophy that he
hoped was more sarcasm than truth; some parents send their kids
away at age 5 and take them back at age 18, if they turn out the
parents take credit, otherwise the school gets the blame. He
referred to the antagonism between home school parents and the
public schools, and suggested that there appears to be a
distrustful relationship.
Number 1164
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON suggested that perhaps some of the antagonism
would go away as a result of distance and allowing some integration
between the two. In several districts the home school and private
schools who had an almost paranoia about public education sent
their kids to a few classes and found it wasn't so bad. The public
school teachers and administrators said that the home school and
private school kids deportment and respect was salutary to the
public school kids. He thought it was perceptive to see this bill
as being reconciliatory.
Number 1218
REPRESENTATIVE DYSON referred to a prediction he made;
Representative Elton felt that there would be more students coming
into the school system while he felt that more people would choose
to spend a significant portion of their time home schooling their
child because the specialist things they were so nervous about
would be taken care of.
CHAIRMAN BUNDE announced that there was one more person to testify
and after that public testimony would be closed. He said he needed
to go to a Finance Budget Subcommittee meeting and turned the gavel
over to Representative Dyson.
Number 1291
SUE CLOVER said she home schools and it is organized as a private
school under state law. She supported HB 158 because she felt it
would create more options for parents and would meet the needs for
special classes. She has a daughter who is interested in French,
she has knowledge of Spanish and can't even pronounce the words in
French. Her daughter is getting close to high school age, they
have looked at various options such as getting her General
Equivalency Diploma (GED) and having her take a university classes.
MS. CLOVER said her experience in Juneau is that they have set up
a correspondence program which would allow some classes to be
taken, but then you are under their supervision, you aren't allowed
to be a separate private school. Curriculum is approved by the
district. If you choose not to do that, you are locked out of the
system.
Number 1342
MS. CLOVER said she has heard of a few people who have taken part
in the public schools, other than the correspondence program, and
it seemed that they were either so demanding that they got their
way, they had gifted or special needs children or they knew someone
and were able to talk them into it. Educational choices should not
depend on who you know.
MS. CLOVER suggested that Alaska has been very innovative and
referred to the high school correspondence course, now known as
Alyeska. Alaska was one of the earliest states to allow home
schools to be operated under the private school law. Passing this
legislation will allow one more option for parents.
Number 1390
ADJOURNMENT
There being no further business to conduct, REPRESENTATIVE DYSON
adjourned the meeting of the House Health, Education and Social
Services Standing Committee at 4:17 p.m.
| Document Name | Date/Time | Subjects |
|---|